Stunted Bass Populations

[trout guy]

if you have a stunted bass population will removing smaller fish increase size of larger fish or will it remain the same?

[jstcrzyengh]

To begin, I think it's necessary to note that I'm not very smart and the words that come out of my head onto the screen don't always make any sense at all. I'm kind of an idiot. Nick and I have been going over this back and forth. I will break down the facts of the situation for you and you can either come back with more facts or just agree with me

Catch and Release only lakes
I say that Catch and Release only lakes produce healthier populations of fish. Both in size and quantity. A couple of great examples of this are Irvine lake and Lake Barrett. You have people paying lots of money trying to buy tickets on ticketmaster to fish barrett. Why you ask? Because it is 100-200 fish days on fish of 2-5lbs and sometimes a lot bigger. Irvine isnt the numbers, but it has the size. Plus these fish see a lot more fishing pressure. In what I like to call "kill lakes" or public lakes where people are "encouraged" to keep al imit of bass, populations are nearly always stunted, or non existant. A great example is Perris and Elsinore. Both lakes use to be known for their bass populations. Heck I was on the cover of WON before for awesome fishing days at Lake Elsinore, this was over 12 years ago I am sad to say. I have fished perris and seen the people along the shore line keeping everything they catch. Unfortunately the DFG doesnt take into account these overkills. When people keep fish from the lakes they ALWAYS keep anything of size, thus depleting the strong genetics that were once in that lake. Once you get to only have a weak genetic structure and you keep breeding those fish, they will not be able to break out of that pattern. A great example is mile square park, trillions of little bluegill, with millions taken everyday. Dont believe me? Spend a saturday afternoon there sometime. Another example of this is DVL. In the 8 years or so the fish sat in there they grew big and populated. First couple of months people had huge catches of bass. 100 fish days with all the fish over 5lbs, than you see guys like the old hick grandpa on their site with the shoe string stringer with 5 5lb bass on it. Smiling away with the two teeth he had left. Now the counts are way down and are even getting some reports of "slow" weeks. There wasnt any "slow" weeks when it opened. No take from that lake seemed to help it a great deal. Huge Bluegill, Bass, Stripers, Trout, Catfish... Now people are taking them... You think that lake will remain the same? Of course not and the effects are already being measured there. Biologist use their shock treatments, not real world facts and study of fish takes, or the relaity of people taking breeders, over their limits, or any other human or non human factors.

Kill Lakes
I implore anyone to show me a lake with normal to heavy take numbers that doesnt have a new source of replenishment like the colorado river, that has any kind of size of fish. Only lakes that come to my mind are casitas or castaic, and these lakes are HEAVILY self regulated. The trophy guys always throw their fish back and are pretty rough on the guys that dont. But again normally only big fish are caught out of these lakes, because the kill sone is there with the people that do catch the smaller fish keeping them.

Largemouth bass are the top of the food chain predator. When a lake opens, lets say a rock quarry, mosquito fish are put in to keep the mosquitos down. Shiners are introduced to help with the algae. Bluegill are introduced to help keep the mosquito and shiner populations down, and bass are there to keep everything in balance. However you start keeping all of the predators and what happens the bait fish out number and some times outsize the bass. The bluegill in perris are larger than most of the bass! Prime examples of miss calculations and miss handling by the politically run DFG.

Again to sum a lot of it up

C&R lakes
Irvine and Barret - Big fish and lots of them

Kill Lakes
Perris and Elsinore - No fish or thousands of stunted fish

Which one is better? Well, by nicks theory we should keep MORE from the stunted lakes because that should help even it out. Well, if that is the case. Please explain Barrett and Irvine. Barrett was a water shed with no population control whatsoever. Also please look at "mother natures own". Had did they coexist before us? You telling me there was only .5lb bass for all eternity? if so how did the world record, back in the early 1900's happen?

[PilotBryson]

You have some facts in your post James, but it is mostly objective opinions. Granted, a lot of what you say makes sense on paper, not all of it is correct when it comes to the answer you are looking for. There is so much more effecting the population/size of bass than whether or not it is (in your words) a "kill lake" or a "C&R Lake." Just off the top of my head, you have to consider the genetic makeup of the strain of fish. You can easily have one bass in a 5 acre pond that does not grow over 12 inches due to its genetic makeup. Other considerations you have to take into account are the primary food source of the bass, the average water temperature and quality, and the average lifespan of the fish in the lake. It is common knowledge that if you throw a thousand fingerling bass into a small pond, maybe one of them will reach over 12 inches because there is just not enough room for them all to grow 10+ pounds. Not only is there not enough room, but there is not enough food for them either. Same thing with aquarium fish. If you throw three fish that reach 15 inches into a 100 gallon aquarium, they will probably reach 12 to 14 inches. Stunted growth of fish has a lot to do with overpopulation and undernourishment, in fact it has everything to do with it. Lowering the legal size of the bass in Lake Perris was a good idea because in the long run the fish will have more room, and therefore be able to grow larger.

[jstcrzyengh]

Again Bryson you and I have had this conversation. Again you are spouting things that make no sense. You CANNOT say a pond is the same thing as a lake. For one thing the architecture and many other factors are much different. While I agree there needs to be space, there isnt a hord of fish in perris over 12". which is the minimum size limit there. So why are they wanting people to take more of the larger fish when the problem is all of the small fish... See again my "observations" are delved more in reality AND the habits of fish in DIFFERENT enviroments than using a theory based and built in a pond or Aquarium enviroment. Again, if the stunted fish are the problem why would the DFG say to remove the bigger fish? To allow the smaller ones to grow? Not likely because those are already the overpopulated area of fish. Again if your theories were correct, Irvine and barrett would have hordes of baby fish, but it is the other way around. Nature does not follow the rules that man applies to it.

[PilotBryson]

Originally Posted by jstcrzyengh

While I agree there needs to be space, there isnt a hord of fish in perris over 12".

Just because you can't catch bass over 12" at Perris does not mean they are not in there.

Originally Posted by jstcrzyengh

So why are they wanting people to take more of the larger fish when the problem is all of the small fish...

Your facts are inaccurate, buddy...Where do you see that they want people to take more of the large fish? By lowering the legal size limit, they are incouraging smaller fish to be kept, not larger fish.

Originally Posted by jstcrzyengh

Again, if the stunted fish are the problem why would the DFG say to remove the bigger fish?

Again, where do you get that the DFG want the bigger fish removed? Your facts are again, as always, inaccurate.

Originally Posted by jstcrzyengh

Again if your theories were correct, Irvine and barrett would have hordes of baby fish, but it is the other way around.

How would they have hoards of baby fish if the legal size limit was decreased?


The bottom line is that if you decrease the legal size limit, more smaller fish will be taken out. If more smaller fish are taken out, there will be more room and food for the ones in the lake. Don't get me wrong, I am in aggreance with you that catch and release is extremely important in solving this problem. What I am arguing is the possibility is that there is another solution in addition to what you are saying. You seem to be very one-sided on this issue, saying that catch and release is the only solution. I am entertaining the thought that the DFG biologists have made the correct decision by lowering the legal size limit of the bass at Lake Perris.

[jstcrzyengh]

Bryson they lowered the size limit to 12" from 15". Meaning they want more fish taken, but again there is not a lot of the other fish in there. This is based upon fish reports and Pro bass tournaments where they get a one bass limit of 3lbs to win the entire tourney!

You and I have fished that lake many times you know what's up.

Again instead of people respouting the DFG's words, please provide me REAL world evidence, like I did with the C&R lakes, that extended harvest lowers the numbers.

[PilotBryson]

Lowering the size limit from 15 to 12 inches does not mean they want more fish taken. Yes I do know what's up. There are entirely too many small bass in there under 12 inches. I am not respouting the DFG's words; I am spouting MY words.

[jstcrzyengh]

Ok bryson again. Show me a lake where that worked...

Also since 95% of the bass in there are under 12" anyway. They will again be killing any bass of any kind of size.

[PilotBryson]

When it works at Lake Perris you'll see for yourself.

[jstcrzyengh]

lol I dont have twenty years to prove you wrong lol

[PilotBryson]

My friend Christine said I need to stop because I'm acting like one of those people who like to make people upset and laugh about it afterwards...
PS. You'll see a difference in a few years, not 20. lol

[cst]

lol just to randomly jump in... I think Bryson is right.

[PilotBryson]

Thanks cst...I owe you a fishing trip now. lol

[cst]

lol i'll put you up to it

[jstcrzyengh]

Bryson CST just said you to try to ding me. lol He needs to understand I own the boat not you bryson hehe lol